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-By Caleb Jones
Once again I am proud to present to you the next Great Blackdragon Debate, where I give one of you, my readers, an opportunity to debate me one-on-one on an issue you disagree with, to show the world how wrong I am. Or not. Always, we will debate below, and you will decide who won or lost the debate. I am also open to debate one of you for the next debate; just let me know in the comments or email me with your topic if you're interested.
Today, we have AwareManNYC. The topic we will be debating is this:
If you adopt Alpha 2.0 practices as recommend by Blackdragon/Caleb, it's harder to find quality mate because your pool of eligible mates becomes dramatically smaller.
Obviously AwareManNYC will be arguing FOR, I will be arguing AGAINST. For purposes of brevity and organization, we will both be following the debate rules as outlined here. AwareManNYC's comments will be in blue, mine will be in the usual black.
As always, I will let my opponent both start and end the debate with his opening and closing comments.
LET THE BATTLE BEGIN!!!
AwareManNYC:
BD,
I'm a big fan of your practical advice, which is based on seeing the world as it is and observing the way people really behave.
But I see a significant downside to your system. If someone adopts the Alpha 2.0 practices, the pool of eligible mates becomes dramatically smaller. Although you say that "things are rapidly changing", I don't see them changing so much that a large percentage of young women are ready to abandon SP and accept an OLTR Marriage. Later in life, perhaps some women are willing to accept this deal.
Today, we have AwareManNYC. The topic we will be debating is this:
If you adopt Alpha 2.0 practices as recommend by Blackdragon/Caleb, it's harder to find quality mate because your pool of eligible mates becomes dramatically smaller.
Obviously AwareManNYC will be arguing FOR, I will be arguing AGAINST. For purposes of brevity and organization, we will both be following the debate rules as outlined here. AwareManNYC's comments will be in blue, mine will be in the usual black.
As always, I will let my opponent both start and end the debate with his opening and closing comments.
LET THE BATTLE BEGIN!!!
AwareManNYC:
BD,
I'm a big fan of your practical advice, which is based on seeing the world as it is and observing the way people really behave.
But I see a significant downside to your system. If someone adopts the Alpha 2.0 practices, the pool of eligible mates becomes dramatically smaller. Although you say that "things are rapidly changing", I don't see them changing so much that a large percentage of young women are ready to abandon SP and accept an OLTR Marriage. Later in life, perhaps some women are willing to accept this deal.
Imagine a young woman explaining to her friends and family that she is marrying this nice young man with a super strong prenup and an agreement that he can have sex with other women on the side. How many women will accept this deal? How many could keep it a secret? Most will hope they can get their Disney marriage, and many will get it.
So, as a result, a young man who follows your system will have a far smaller pool of women to mate with, especially if he wants children at a young age.
Even later in life, it seems from your own story that it is the rare woman who is both high quality and willing to accept the OLTR terms. In most of the cases you point out, having children is not part of the picture.
So, it seems the practical thing to do for young men seeking to mate is what you did. Marry the best woman you can find. Have children, work it out as long as you can, and then divorce and switch to a full A2.0 lifestyle. Otherwise you are going to have to settle for choosing from a much smaller pool of potential mates. The problem with this from an A2.0 perspective is that such a plan involves deception.
Blackdragon:
As is so often the case in these discussions, you have concerns, but I have data.
Per my spreadsheets, I've had scores of women in nonmono relationships over the past ten years, and ten either straight out asked to marry me or clearly indicated they wanted to marry me. (This doesn't even include my current OLTR who never spoke of marriage before we got very serious. This also doesn't include other women who had these feelings but never told me.)
So, as a result, a young man who follows your system will have a far smaller pool of women to mate with, especially if he wants children at a young age.
Even later in life, it seems from your own story that it is the rare woman who is both high quality and willing to accept the OLTR terms. In most of the cases you point out, having children is not part of the picture.
So, it seems the practical thing to do for young men seeking to mate is what you did. Marry the best woman you can find. Have children, work it out as long as you can, and then divorce and switch to a full A2.0 lifestyle. Otherwise you are going to have to settle for choosing from a much smaller pool of potential mates. The problem with this from an A2.0 perspective is that such a plan involves deception.
Blackdragon:
As is so often the case in these discussions, you have concerns, but I have data.
Per my spreadsheets, I've had scores of women in nonmono relationships over the past ten years, and ten either straight out asked to marry me or clearly indicated they wanted to marry me. (This doesn't even include my current OLTR who never spoke of marriage before we got very serious. This also doesn't include other women who had these feelings but never told me.)
All ten understood that such a marriage would involve me having sex with other girls and some legal protections (prenup, etc).
So your concern about "where in the world would you find these women?" is now answered. They're right in front of you. Millions of them.
Their ages: 18, 19, 21, 23, 23, 25, 26, 27, 27, 35. As you can see, most of these women were young. Indeed, the oldest one (age 35) was the most resistant about the OLTR idea. So your contention that younger women are less likely to go along with this is inaccurate in my experience.
So your concern about "where in the world would you find these women?" is now answered. They're right in front of you. Millions of them.
Their ages: 18, 19, 21, 23, 23, 25, 26, 27, 27, 35. As you can see, most of these women were young. Indeed, the oldest one (age 35) was the most resistant about the OLTR idea. So your contention that younger women are less likely to go along with this is inaccurate in my experience.
In terms of having kids, the ones who were 18, 19, 21, one of the 23 year-old's, and one of the 27 year-old's were all extremely eager to have children with me. Three were neutral about it, one couldn't have kids, and one already had one and didn't want more.
As you can see, the youngest ones were the most excited to have kids in an OLTR marriage with me.
In terms of quality, 50% had college degrees (2 of which were ivy league), 40% had what I'm sure were very high IQ's, at least 40% had what most men would consider a 9 in looks or higher, 90% of them had never had a nonmonogamous relationship before me, and 70% were living good, "normal," honest, responsible lifestyles.
Your turn.
AwareManNYC
The argument is not about whether you can find a mate at all, but whether the pool of women that would accept an OLTR marriage is smaller and suboptimal, especially for younger men. You found some women who say they would marry you. How many more choices would you have had if the pool was opened up to those who were not willing to accept OLTR marriage? Without the OLTR acceptance restriction, the pool of marriageable women would be larger and because of that any man, and especially younger men, would have a higher probability of a better mate.
Your numbers would be stronger with more detail. How many of your offers came from women you found to be special? You say they have quality in terms of looks, lifestyle, and college degrees, but how many were FBs, MLTRs, OLTRs? If none were OLTRs were they really that special?
Also, a marriage offer is not a marriage acceptance. As you pointed out in your recent blog, attractive people have options and take them rather than accepting relationships they don’t like. How many of your high quality women would have actually gone through with an OLTR marriage after considering their options? I suspect that some of your offers were based on NRE, and that others would have been rescinded.
Your Alpha 2.0 methods are based on the assumption that women have to be eased out of SP. In one post, you liken the process to taking a shower and slowly having the water temperature turned cold. You make no bones about the fact that you are nexted all the time by women who don’t want to accept Alpha 2.0 terms. If all the women who are not willing to accept an OLTR with children are now back in the pool, will your choices be better? Yes.
Blackdragon:
If my backyard pool is a 2000 ft. in diameter, and you say, "Wouldn't this be better if it were six miles wide?" that's silly and irrelevant. I just showed that the pool for women for OLTR is huge, far more than most guys need. Worrying about making it even larger isn't relevant to the typical guy practicing this system. The goal is to find a quality mate, not to have a bigger pool of possible mates than you actually need.
Of the 10 women, 5 I considered "special," 1 was OLTR, 8 were MLTR's, one was FB.
More weren't OLTR's because I didn't want an OLTR at the time, not because they weren't special.
In terms women rescinding their offers, you're just speculating. Even if you're right, and 50% magically rescinded their offer after I proposed marriage (very unlikely, but I'll go with it), that still leaves 5 women, more than enough to choose a quality mate from if I had wanted one at the time.
You are nexted all the time by women who don’t want to accept Alpha 2.0 terms.
Correct, but those are all women who are FB's/MLTR's not getting any Disney, not married OLTR wives receiving a decent amount. As I've talked about before, if you offer a potential OLTR a decent amount of Disney on top of your Alpha 2.0 stuff, things FB's and MLTR's never get (like wife status, a girly wedding ceremony, a real marriage proposal, an engagement ring, living together, children, emotional exclusivity, financial support, etc) then a high number will go for it despite the prenup and open marriage stuff, particularly if they already really like you, which is already in the bag at that point (or should be).
I have never been nexted or LSNFTEd by an OLTR, and probably never will be.
AwareManNYC
Let’s take the focus off you and look at the prevalence of OLTR marriages that result in children, especially for younger men.
As you can see, the youngest ones were the most excited to have kids in an OLTR marriage with me.
In terms of quality, 50% had college degrees (2 of which were ivy league), 40% had what I'm sure were very high IQ's, at least 40% had what most men would consider a 9 in looks or higher, 90% of them had never had a nonmonogamous relationship before me, and 70% were living good, "normal," honest, responsible lifestyles.
Your turn.
AwareManNYC
The argument is not about whether you can find a mate at all, but whether the pool of women that would accept an OLTR marriage is smaller and suboptimal, especially for younger men. You found some women who say they would marry you. How many more choices would you have had if the pool was opened up to those who were not willing to accept OLTR marriage? Without the OLTR acceptance restriction, the pool of marriageable women would be larger and because of that any man, and especially younger men, would have a higher probability of a better mate.
Your numbers would be stronger with more detail. How many of your offers came from women you found to be special? You say they have quality in terms of looks, lifestyle, and college degrees, but how many were FBs, MLTRs, OLTRs? If none were OLTRs were they really that special?
Also, a marriage offer is not a marriage acceptance. As you pointed out in your recent blog, attractive people have options and take them rather than accepting relationships they don’t like. How many of your high quality women would have actually gone through with an OLTR marriage after considering their options? I suspect that some of your offers were based on NRE, and that others would have been rescinded.
Your Alpha 2.0 methods are based on the assumption that women have to be eased out of SP. In one post, you liken the process to taking a shower and slowly having the water temperature turned cold. You make no bones about the fact that you are nexted all the time by women who don’t want to accept Alpha 2.0 terms. If all the women who are not willing to accept an OLTR with children are now back in the pool, will your choices be better? Yes.
Blackdragon:
If my backyard pool is a 2000 ft. in diameter, and you say, "Wouldn't this be better if it were six miles wide?" that's silly and irrelevant. I just showed that the pool for women for OLTR is huge, far more than most guys need. Worrying about making it even larger isn't relevant to the typical guy practicing this system. The goal is to find a quality mate, not to have a bigger pool of possible mates than you actually need.
Of the 10 women, 5 I considered "special," 1 was OLTR, 8 were MLTR's, one was FB.
More weren't OLTR's because I didn't want an OLTR at the time, not because they weren't special.
In terms women rescinding their offers, you're just speculating. Even if you're right, and 50% magically rescinded their offer after I proposed marriage (very unlikely, but I'll go with it), that still leaves 5 women, more than enough to choose a quality mate from if I had wanted one at the time.
You are nexted all the time by women who don’t want to accept Alpha 2.0 terms.
Correct, but those are all women who are FB's/MLTR's not getting any Disney, not married OLTR wives receiving a decent amount. As I've talked about before, if you offer a potential OLTR a decent amount of Disney on top of your Alpha 2.0 stuff, things FB's and MLTR's never get (like wife status, a girly wedding ceremony, a real marriage proposal, an engagement ring, living together, children, emotional exclusivity, financial support, etc) then a high number will go for it despite the prenup and open marriage stuff, particularly if they already really like you, which is already in the bag at that point (or should be).
I have never been nexted or LSNFTEd by an OLTR, and probably never will be.
AwareManNYC
Let’s take the focus off you and look at the prevalence of OLTR marriages that result in children, especially for younger men.
In all the mentions of OLTR relationships on your site, I don’t recall one that involves having children in the future. Usually, the OLTR arrangement described involves older men, who converted their marriage or created an OLTR relationship after kid-having. Can you point me to one relationship mentioned in your content where a man of 28 or younger created an OLTR marriage with the goal of having children and then had children?
Perhaps the men on the site who sought to marry younger can comment and explain if they found it hard to create an OLTR marriage? If what you say is true, would you expect that out of 10 younger men who married early and wanted children, we would find a few who had OLTR marriages with children.
My guess is that we don’t find even one for two reasons. First, you are an advanced Alpha 2.0 with mad skills. You are speculating when you assert other younger A2.0s will have a similar experience as you had as an older man. Few younger man can efficiently run the process it took you years to learn. If they can’t their pool of mates will be limited.
Second, SP and hormones are powerful. It is the rare young man who can have the discipline to apply A2.0 principles without having suffered from mistakes. This group will get traditionally married.
My view is that you should just admit that A2.0 principles are hard to adhere to at the beginning of a dating career. You program for the most part is about living a happy life after you made your mistakes in the first wave of dating or marriage, which is what it was about for you.
Perhaps the men on the site who sought to marry younger can comment and explain if they found it hard to create an OLTR marriage? If what you say is true, would you expect that out of 10 younger men who married early and wanted children, we would find a few who had OLTR marriages with children.
My guess is that we don’t find even one for two reasons. First, you are an advanced Alpha 2.0 with mad skills. You are speculating when you assert other younger A2.0s will have a similar experience as you had as an older man. Few younger man can efficiently run the process it took you years to learn. If they can’t their pool of mates will be limited.
Second, SP and hormones are powerful. It is the rare young man who can have the discipline to apply A2.0 principles without having suffered from mistakes. This group will get traditionally married.
My view is that you should just admit that A2.0 principles are hard to adhere to at the beginning of a dating career. You program for the most part is about living a happy life after you made your mistakes in the first wave of dating or marriage, which is what it was about for you.
Blackdragon:
I know at least 5 couples in OLTR marriages who are or were under age 28, with kids. However, as I've said many times, young men should not have an OLTR, and young men should not have children.
Men should only have kids after they've accomplished their big goals in life. That means over age 35 or 40. Having kids in your 20's is a very bad idea, period, regardless of OLTR, monogamous, or married. I realize few men who hear this take this advice, biology and Societal Programming being what they are, but I'm still right about this. Having kids early in life will make you less happy and less successful in the long-term.
OLTR is not something I recommend for men in their 20's. As you correctly stated, men in their 20's are often pretty stupid when it comes to relationships. When they attempt ANY serious relationship (monogamous or OLTR) it usually ends up blowing up in their faces.
Thus, men should wait until they're at least 30 before they have ANY kind of girlfriend or wife. This addresses your point about older men being better at this; yes, but older men tend to be better (or less bad) at any type of relationship with a woman, not just Alpha 2.0.
Your advice for young men to get legally married and monogamous, have kids, then "just get divorced" is not only bad advice, but it's probably the worst advice I've ever heard anyone give younger men. It's savagely destructive on multiple levels (legally, financially, emotionally, sexually, logistically, etc).
That's why I'm not here to encourage young men to make lethal mistakes. Fuck no! I'm here to show them the least bad way to life live in the modern era, even if that means you need to be a little patient.
AwareManNYC
First of all, I don’t recommend younger men get legally married and get divorced, I am just pointing out that, like you, many will because they feel they have met the right person and want what SP tells them to want.
The bottom line for me is that it seems obvious that if you take all the women in the world, a large percentage would never agree to OLTR terms for a relationship or a marriage. They have other choices and there is no reason for them to do anything they feel is a compromise. As you point out, accepting OLTR terms is seen by almost all women as a compromise because of SP.
So in your case, you had 10 women who were willing to accept OLTR marriage. Would the number of women you could have married been higher if you had not wanted an OLTR marriage? Unless the world is free of Disney SP, the answer to this must be yes, so my argument that the pool of mates is reduced holds.
I know at least 5 couples in OLTR marriages who are or were under age 28, with kids. However, as I've said many times, young men should not have an OLTR, and young men should not have children.
Men should only have kids after they've accomplished their big goals in life. That means over age 35 or 40. Having kids in your 20's is a very bad idea, period, regardless of OLTR, monogamous, or married. I realize few men who hear this take this advice, biology and Societal Programming being what they are, but I'm still right about this. Having kids early in life will make you less happy and less successful in the long-term.
OLTR is not something I recommend for men in their 20's. As you correctly stated, men in their 20's are often pretty stupid when it comes to relationships. When they attempt ANY serious relationship (monogamous or OLTR) it usually ends up blowing up in their faces.
Thus, men should wait until they're at least 30 before they have ANY kind of girlfriend or wife. This addresses your point about older men being better at this; yes, but older men tend to be better (or less bad) at any type of relationship with a woman, not just Alpha 2.0.
Your advice for young men to get legally married and monogamous, have kids, then "just get divorced" is not only bad advice, but it's probably the worst advice I've ever heard anyone give younger men. It's savagely destructive on multiple levels (legally, financially, emotionally, sexually, logistically, etc).
That's why I'm not here to encourage young men to make lethal mistakes. Fuck no! I'm here to show them the least bad way to life live in the modern era, even if that means you need to be a little patient.
AwareManNYC
First of all, I don’t recommend younger men get legally married and get divorced, I am just pointing out that, like you, many will because they feel they have met the right person and want what SP tells them to want.
The bottom line for me is that it seems obvious that if you take all the women in the world, a large percentage would never agree to OLTR terms for a relationship or a marriage. They have other choices and there is no reason for them to do anything they feel is a compromise. As you point out, accepting OLTR terms is seen by almost all women as a compromise because of SP.
So in your case, you had 10 women who were willing to accept OLTR marriage. Would the number of women you could have married been higher if you had not wanted an OLTR marriage? Unless the world is free of Disney SP, the answer to this must be yes, so my argument that the pool of mates is reduced holds.
What you are arguing is that 1) It doesn’t matter of more women would marry you on non-OLTR terms because that’s a bad deal for the man. And 2) it is always possible to find a high quality woman who will accept OLTR terms for any age group. But in any event 3) younger men aren’t well equipped to navigate relationships and should avoid marriage before their life goals are in order.
So if you want to get married young and start a family, your advice is don’t. But if you do, use the OLTR model and you will find someone good enough. My point is that once you part from the Alpha 2.0 advice and decide to get married young, you are playing a different game and only seeking women from the OLTR pool will seem quite restrictive.
Blackdragon:
Of course there would have been more women willing to marry me under a traditional monogamous marriage. Traditional monogamous marriage doesn't work anymore, so that's irrelevant.
If I need to hire a full-time employee, and there are 5,000 candidates who want the job, but only want to work 3 days a week for double the pay I'm offering, that irrelevant to me. Instead, I'll focus on the 2,000 (or 1,000, or 600, or whatever) candidates who want the job offering as stated and pick the best one of those. There's more than enough in that pool to find what I want. The 5,000 other are completely irrelevant.
And correct, my advice to young men in the modern era and in the Western world is that they should wait unit they're at least 35 before settling down and starting a family. I agree that sucks, but that's the least-bad way of living life for a man in today's problematic (Western) world.
Question: If you're not recommending young men getting legally married and you don't like the OLTR concept (which, as I said, is best for men over 35, not young men), then what is YOUR recommendation for young men? Please be very specific.
AwareManNYC:
This back and forth has clarified what bothers me about your program and what I think you should admit as a disclaimer. There is a social cost to being Alpha 2.0, just as there is a cost to being gay, poly, trans, or many other things that are unconventional and challenge norms. In your latest blog on converting from monogamy you essentially admit this in point D about not letting anyone know about the non-monogamous relationship.
The cost I started with is the idea that A2.0 reduces the pool of eligible mates. You admit this, but say it doesn’t matter because there are enough women who would accept OLTR marriage who are of high quality.
We often mate in communities of people that share our history, culture, values and interests. You have said that it is a bad idea for women to be public about accepting OLTR terms because the SP of the community kicks in, especially from other women. What would happen to a man in a community after his OLTR proposal is rejected? Would other women date him? In some communities, maybe it won’t be a problem. But in many it will and you admit as much by your recommendation to stay “in the closet” about Alpha 2.0 relationships in many cases.
My specific recommendation for a young person who believes in Alpha 2.0 values is to oscillate between serial monogamy and having multiple partners. Because you will be seen to be monogamous at times, you will be acceptable by any partner. But you should end such relationships and go back to the A2.0 model after some fixed time period, unless you are seeking to get married and have children. Then, in that context, you bring up the A2.0 rules because you want a sustainable long term relationship.
I will leave it there and let AwareManNYC have the last word. I hope this debate has been entertaining and useful! Please us know in the comments your thoughts, who think won the debate, and if you'd like to debate me on another topic.
So if you want to get married young and start a family, your advice is don’t. But if you do, use the OLTR model and you will find someone good enough. My point is that once you part from the Alpha 2.0 advice and decide to get married young, you are playing a different game and only seeking women from the OLTR pool will seem quite restrictive.
Blackdragon:
Of course there would have been more women willing to marry me under a traditional monogamous marriage. Traditional monogamous marriage doesn't work anymore, so that's irrelevant.
If I need to hire a full-time employee, and there are 5,000 candidates who want the job, but only want to work 3 days a week for double the pay I'm offering, that irrelevant to me. Instead, I'll focus on the 2,000 (or 1,000, or 600, or whatever) candidates who want the job offering as stated and pick the best one of those. There's more than enough in that pool to find what I want. The 5,000 other are completely irrelevant.
And correct, my advice to young men in the modern era and in the Western world is that they should wait unit they're at least 35 before settling down and starting a family. I agree that sucks, but that's the least-bad way of living life for a man in today's problematic (Western) world.
Question: If you're not recommending young men getting legally married and you don't like the OLTR concept (which, as I said, is best for men over 35, not young men), then what is YOUR recommendation for young men? Please be very specific.
AwareManNYC:
This back and forth has clarified what bothers me about your program and what I think you should admit as a disclaimer. There is a social cost to being Alpha 2.0, just as there is a cost to being gay, poly, trans, or many other things that are unconventional and challenge norms. In your latest blog on converting from monogamy you essentially admit this in point D about not letting anyone know about the non-monogamous relationship.
The cost I started with is the idea that A2.0 reduces the pool of eligible mates. You admit this, but say it doesn’t matter because there are enough women who would accept OLTR marriage who are of high quality.
We often mate in communities of people that share our history, culture, values and interests. You have said that it is a bad idea for women to be public about accepting OLTR terms because the SP of the community kicks in, especially from other women. What would happen to a man in a community after his OLTR proposal is rejected? Would other women date him? In some communities, maybe it won’t be a problem. But in many it will and you admit as much by your recommendation to stay “in the closet” about Alpha 2.0 relationships in many cases.
My specific recommendation for a young person who believes in Alpha 2.0 values is to oscillate between serial monogamy and having multiple partners. Because you will be seen to be monogamous at times, you will be acceptable by any partner. But you should end such relationships and go back to the A2.0 model after some fixed time period, unless you are seeking to get married and have children. Then, in that context, you bring up the A2.0 rules because you want a sustainable long term relationship.
I will leave it there and let AwareManNYC have the last word. I hope this debate has been entertaining and useful! Please us know in the comments your thoughts, who think won the debate, and if you'd like to debate me on another topic.
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